So what do we think?
|
|
Jeter |
Reyes |
Edge |
|
Average |
.300 |
.297 |
Jeter |
|
HR |
11 |
16 |
Reyes |
|
RBI |
69 |
68 |
Jeter |
|
Runs |
88 |
113 |
Reyes |
|
Hits |
179 |
204 |
Reyes |
|
Walks |
52 |
66 |
Reyes |
|
Strikeouts |
85 |
82 |
Reyes |
|
AB |
596 |
688 |
Reyes |
|
OBP |
.363 |
.358 |
Jeter |
|
OPS |
.771 |
.833 |
Reyes |
|
Fielding % |
.979 |
.974 |
Jeter |
|
Errors |
12 |
17 |
Jeter |
|
ZR |
.829 |
.812 |
Jeter |
|
Range |
.407 |
.405 |
Jeter |
The Widening Geier 
October 2, 2008 at 12:24 pm |
Where’s slugging %? Or triples and homers.
October 2, 2008 at 12:33 pm |
I meant doubles, not homers. But if you are gonna put up OBP, you have to put up slugging percentage, which is probably even more important.
October 2, 2008 at 12:35 pm |
And what about stolen bases. If they’re so unimportant, why is Lou Brock in the HOF? And what made Ricky so special?
October 2, 2008 at 12:37 pm |
At least you have seen the light on Beltran. :). But the bottom line is that the best two shortstops in baseball today are Hanley and Reyes, neither of whom have even reached their prime yet. Rollins, who is much older than Reyes and Hanley, is third. No one else is even close to those three any more.
October 2, 2008 at 1:10 pm |
F steals. runs scored covers doubles and triples. if you get to 2nd or 3rd, and don’t score or knock someone in, it doesn’t matter. If you steal, and don’t score, it doesn’t matter.
Jeter is still one of the best, and is hardly “not close”,
October 2, 2008 at 1:54 pm |
Why F steals? Because Reyes steals bases? Runs scored does not cover doubles and triples. Slugging percentage covers doubles and triples and you failed to include slugging percentage. Reyes had a much higher slugging percentage than Jeter. If you’re gonna post on base , it’s only fair to post slugging.
October 2, 2008 at 2:45 pm |
No, f steals because they mean nothing in isolation. Sure we could get deep into how the pitcher has to pay more attention, and it turns what would have been first and third into an RBI single. but I think thats adequately reflected in runs scored.
and i posted OPS, which accounts for slugging. Its obvious that if the OPS is higher and the OBP is lower, the slugging accounts for the difference.
why not address Jeter outperforming Reyes in the field?
October 2, 2008 at 3:08 pm |
Jeter did outperform him in the field this year. Reyes had a bad first half in the field, and Jeter had his best year in a decade or so. It was an anomoly.
If steals mean nothing if you don’t score, than don’t hits and walks mean nothing as well unless you scorel? Every stat means something. And stolen bases, unlike runs and ribbies, is a purely individual stat not dependent upon the performance of other players around you. Is the guy who doubles, steals third and then gets stranded at third less of a ball player than the guy who walks and then scores on a homer by someone else? Of course not, and that’s why runs and ribbies are not as important as you tend to believe. Nor are wins for a pitcher.
I just find it amusing that you skip vital offensive categories which favor Reyes such as slugging percentage and stolen bases on the ground that they are superfluous, but then you post entirely redundant categories which favor Jeter such as both errors and fielding percentage. Why post errors if you are gonna post fielding percentage, unless you are trying to find a way to pad the Jeter’s line?
October 2, 2008 at 3:28 pm |
Stolen bases also can create double plays, and close up holes that might otherwise be open. But when comparing two players with equal runs scored, why does having more steals matter? Maybe you steal a base and get into socring position while another guy smartly tags up and gets there too.
To use your example, if a guy doubles, steals third, and gets stranded there, what has he done? His stats go up, but the team hasn’t gained anything. Stranded at third means an out that would have happened if he was standing on second as well. Sure its contingent on the guys batting behind you, but that doesn’t increase its value either.
and, F% and errors are not redundant. 20 errors is a big number. But what if you have 100 assists? What if you played only 50 games? Look at OBP and hits.
October 2, 2008 at 3:59 pm |
But runs scored is not an individual stat. Nor is rbi. They are dependent upon other players in the lineup. BA, slugging percentage, on base percentage, homeruns, stolen bases — those stats tell you more about an individual’s performance than runs and rbi.
And stolen bases result in fewer rather than more double plays because they remove the force play at second. Maybe Jeter wouldn’t have a thousand or so GIDP’s every year if Reyes led off in front of him. 🙂
Fielding percentage and errors are entirely redundant when comparing players who play the same position. Fielding percentage would have been sufficient.
October 2, 2008 at 4:03 pm |
Final ss winshare totals for 2008 from hardball times — Hanley 32, Reyes 29, Rollins 24, and no one else close to them. Jeter in 9th with 18.
My boy Beltran had 33, third most behind Berkman and Pujols.