It is hard to get a handle on what the legacy of Joe Torre will be when he retires from the game.
Pre-Yankees– Torre began his managerial career in the National League; with the Mets for five seasons, the Braves for three, and the Cards for six. His overall record was 894-1003 (109 games below .500) His highest win total was 89, and high higest loss total was 99.
With the Yankees- Torre’s history with the Yankees is well documented. 4 world series victories, 6 AL Championships, 12 straight playoff appearances, 10 Division championships, 4 100 win seasons, and no fewer than 92 wins in any season.
Torre was incredibly successful as a manager, and his public demeanor endeared him to fans in New York. Now comes the tricky part. Joe Torre was the manager of the Yankees while they continually led off of baseball in payroll, and trotted out teams with high-profile players at nearly every position. There was seemingly no free agent beyond their grasp. However, Torre failed to win a World Series after 2000, and lost twice in that time. He also oversaw a team that experienced an unprecedented comeback by the Red Sox in 2004 after having led in the ALCS 3-0. His final three years as Yankee manager featured three consecutive first-round exits from the playoffs, and 2007 marked the first time since 1997 where a team other than the Yankees won the AL East.
So what does this all mean?
Context- Tampa Bay is currently a win away from the World Series, and they are opposing the Boston Red Sox in the ALCS. Certainly the AL East can be considered the toughest division in baseball. The Yankees were on top for so long that teams designed to be the best were also, in part, designed to beat the Yankees.
Where does Torre rank among great Yankee managers?
- Miller Huggins won three World Series with the Ruth/Gehrig Yankees, and another 3 pennants.
- Joe McCarthy won 7 World Series spanning the Ruth and Joe Dimaggio eras, with an additional pennant.
- Casey Stengel won 7 as well, spanning Dimaggio and Mantle, with an additional 3 pennants.
- Raplh Houk won two World Series and a pennant in his first three years (though these could easily have been Stengel’s), and had a team win 109 games.
- Billy Martin won 2 World Series and a pennant.
- Torre won 4 World Series and 2 additional pennants.
So, Torre won the third most world Series for the Yankees as their manager, and is tied for thirs in combined WS/AL Championships. He may be unfairly judged in my eyes because, while no manager from another team matched his success during his time with the Yankees, there have been managers of the Yankees who have had much more success. It can also be argued that, due to the spending of Steinbrenner, Torre had the biggest player advantage of any manager of his time, or any Yankee manager in the team’s history.
Post-Yankees– Joe Torre is now the manager of the Los Angeles Dodgers, who were just knocked out of the playoffs 4-1 by the Phillies. Torre’s team won the NL West, the worst division in baseball (the AL West was saved by the Angels), and arguably one of the worst divisions in baseball in a while. He won 84 games with the Dodgers (4 fewer than the Yankees won in 2008) which was his lowest full-season win total since he won 83 with the Cards in 1992. With their win total, the Dodgers would have finished:
- 4th in the NL East
- 5th in the NL Central
- 5th in the AL East
- 3rd in the AL Central
- 2nd in the AL West (16 GB)
Now Torre was in his first year with a new team, and did get them to the NLCS. He beat a Cubs team that was favored by many to win it all. But, Torre also benefitted from the arrival and subsequent tear that Manny Ramirez went on when he arrived in LA. Also, I have now been hearing comments, correctly attributed to Torre or not, about how “he is having fun managing now”, and “it is nice to manage this way”, essentially knocking his end of his time with the Yankees. Torre left the Yankees after turning down an incentives-laden contract offer which would have reduced his base salary, but rewarded him handosmely for benchmarks like playoffs, pennant, and World Series.
I am not sure what Torre’s lasting legacy will be. For now, I suppose I will go with the “remember the good times” approach, because they sure were some good times.
The Widening Geier 
October 16, 2008 at 11:50 am |
As I have said repeatedly, he was not a great manager by any means. But he was a great manager for the Yankee teams of the late 90’s, and that’s all that really matters. He had a team of professional veterans who didn’t need a so-called brilliant strategist or motivator, and he knew it. He treated them like adults, didn’t overmanage or try to prove his “genius” like so many do, and he shielded the players from the madness of King George and the NY media. Some “smarter” or supposedly better managers would have fucked up that chemistry, but he did not.
You are probably too young to appreciate what a total asshole George was and what a cancer he could be with a team. You started watching baseball while he was serving and/or recovering from his second suspension and then became a rabid fan while Torre was keeping him in check.
October 16, 2008 at 12:56 pm |
I don’t know that I am too young to appreciate that, so much as I wasn’t paying attention to baseball that much in 1990. I liked the Knicks and Giants then, and hadn’t had my moment with baseball yet.
What do you think his legacy will be? I think that “didn’t get in the way” is unfair to a manager who won 4 titles and 6 pennants. I also think he got a free pass for some bonehead playoff moves, and some bad regular season strategies got overlook because the team still won.
eli- bad game or trouble brewing>?
October 16, 2008 at 2:28 pm |
There’s something to be said for knowing to staying out the way, and I didn’t mean to belittle him in the least bit. He was a calm, steady influence in a Yankee clubhouse which had so often been a den of insanity. He created and fostered an atmosphere which permitted a team full of self-motivated professionals to thrive. That’s no small accomplishment. As for the craziness around the Yanks pre-1990, I’m talking about firing the manager for no reason, firing coaches to show up the manager, making trades for no reason, calling out players in the media, showing up players for no reason, treating every three game losing streak like it was the end of the world, ect. It’s hard to win under those conditions, and the Yanks were a laughingstock during the 80’s that couldn’t win a championship, even though they always had a good team and the highest payroll. Torre put that crap to rest. He’s a Hall of Famer for certain.
Eli — not as good as people started to believe, but not as bad Monday. And our offense is freaking awesone no matter what. Still think Jacobs might be our third best back, and Toomer our 4th best wr. The depth at the skill positions is astounding.
I’m more worried about the defense and the fact that other teams are now picking up our blitz packages with relative ease. Spags has gotta adjust.
October 17, 2008 at 10:23 am |
I agree about the defense. It just looked like the Giants were being outmuscled by Cleveland up front. I am still not sold on the secondary, and I think that Braylon Edwards showed what can happen when the corners are singled up, and the QB has time.
On offense, I agree that the team is stacked. I think Ward sometimes runs as hard as Jacobs, but wth more burst. I have seen Jacobs pulled down from behind at least 4 times, on long (30+ yard) runs. For the WR, I am on record long ago about Steve Smith, I think he rules. He is awesome on those third down and longs, and you don’t see the guy running a 7 yard out when the team needs 8. Toomer needs more targets in my opinion. He is not the fastest or the most physical, but I love the way he runs in space on crossing routes.
October 17, 2008 at 4:35 pm |
I’m ok with the secondary, especially the corners. No playmakers out there, but pretty solid across the board. Like to see Phillips get more time though. The problem is that with all the blitzes, they are all alone on an island out there, and the blitzes are not getting to the QB on time. Webster’s been good, and I think Ross is a stud in the making. He just had a bad week trying to cover Edwards one on one. The linebackers concern me more. No playmakers to help compensate for the loss of Osi and Strahan. That was the killer about losing Osi. We got weaker at DE and LB by having to move Kiwi, and we lost the ability to send Kiwi standing up on the blitz packages. And Tuck is now learning how tough it is to pass rush with double teams and chip blocks on every play. A lot easier when Strahan was next to him taking on those double teams.
But we should be able to handle SF rather easily this weekend. Then it gets interesting with Pitt and Dallas.
Another thing about Ward, he’s pretty smooth catching passes out of the backfield. Jacobs moves like Eddy Curry going out for passes and has hands of steel.
October 21, 2008 at 2:07 pm |
I always said that the Yankee fans were the Dallas Cowboy fans of baseball, and that alliance has now been made official by the respective evil empires. How does it feel to root for a team which has now aligned itself for merchandise sales and marketing with your football team’s rival?
I’d be absolutely disgusted.
October 22, 2008 at 9:51 am |
Yankee fans that jumped on the late 90’s boom are equateable to Cowboy fans who jumped on during the early 90’s boom. Otherwise, I am not with the analogy.
If this partnership improves the truly substandard service of CenterPlate and its employees, I am all for it. Waiting 25 minutes for a surly person to acknowledge you and SLOWLY make your food order, then receiving crap food in not conducive to a great time. Having to confront people again and again about pouring you 2/3 to 3/4 of a beer you are payiny $8 for is not worth it.
Jerry Jones already spends his butt off, so its not like this will mean new revenue which will allow the Boys to outspend the Giants on free agents.
October 22, 2008 at 10:42 am |
The yanks have always been the cowboys of baseball — at least since the early 1920’s. The yankee fan, by its very nature, is a frontrunner, because it has deliberately selected to root for a team which never loses and has never been challenged by failure. Their loyalty has never been tested.
The unholy alliance is now official.
October 22, 2008 at 11:22 am |
Now we’re just being ridiculous. I’ve been waiting since 2000 for this team to stop losing.
October 22, 2008 at 12:13 pm |
Stop losing? This was the first year they missed the playoffs since 1993 (they were in first at the time of the 94 strike). Your loyalty has never been tested. Go 7 or 8 years of missing the playoffs with some last place seasons mixed in, and we’ll see just how many of the so-called Yankee fans are real fans.
The Mets absolutely owned this town in the 80’s, although the yanks had the best record in baseball for the decade, and yankee fans laughably refer to the 80’s as the “lean years.” If the yankee fans disappeared in the 80’s, what would happen to them if they actually sucked for a decade?
October 22, 2008 at 2:17 pm |
Fans deserve 0 criticism for rooting for a winning team.If they abandon their team for a winning team, then they should be criticized. If they pick a team solely because they are winning, then abandon them when the winning stops, they deserve to be knocked.
Once again, I came to this team in 1991. I’m not sure how much you remember of the early 90s, but they were 71-91 that year with the immortal Stump Merrill at the helm. They were coming off a 67-95 year. Those are lean times. Should I be knocked because my team turned into a dynasty 6 seasons after I started following them? Am I still earning my stripes as a fan until the Yankees go into the crapper and I stick with them?
You seem to forget that this team is among the title favorites every year. Failing to win it all on a team which is built to do so is just as bad as the Royals staying in the crapper.
Even if you say 25 of the 53K who go to the stadium for games are real fans, thats still more fans than Shea brings out in a pennant race. The “I stick with a losing team, so I’m more of a real fan” argument doesn’t apply to me.
I can’t speak for everyone else, but my peer group of Yankee fans has generally known nothing but regular season success, and 6 great playoff runs. Most of my non-Yankee fan friends were rooting for the Braves bandwagon in 1996.
October 22, 2008 at 4:21 pm |
One losing season for an entire lifetime of rooting for the yanks. That’s my point. You guys are never tested. I love the guys in my age bracket who brag about “suffering” thru the 80’s when the yanks had the best record in the majors but didn’t win any championships.
In any event, you gotta admit that the Cowboy deal is irksome. It would bug me big time if I was in your shoes. As a Giant fan, you must view the cowboys and their fans and all that America’s team bullshit like I view the Yanks and their fans and their “tradition” bullshit. Just admit you hate your team being linked with the cowboys, and I’ll stop tweaking you with this nonsense.
October 27, 2008 at 9:51 pm |
Dude, check out the title to today’s Paul Krugman op-ed in the NY Times. It should be available online without a subscription.